In this episode of Minds at Work, host Nathan Friedman is talking to Justin Thomas-Copeland, CEO of the 4As (American Association of Advertising Agencies) to explore the “creativity crisis” and the role of neurodiversity in shaping the future of advertising. Justin shares insights from groundbreaking research done in partnership with Understood.org on neurodivergent talent in the creative industry — and practical steps agencies can take to unlock creativity at scale.
In this episode of Minds at Work, host Nathan Friedman is talking to Justin Thomas-Copeland, CEO of the 4As (American Association of Advertising Agencies) to explore the “creativity crisis” and the role of neurodiversity in shaping the future of advertising.
Justin shares insights from groundbreaking research done in partnership with Understood.org on neurodivergent talent in the creative industry — and practical steps agencies can take to unlock creativity at scale.
Timestamps:
(3:06) What is the creativity crisis, and why does it matter now?
(08:54) Surprising insights from 4As research on neurodivergent talent
(15:15) How fast-paced change is disrupting, and driving, creativity
(24:50) Brands leading the way on inclusion: Who’s getting it right?
For a transcript and more resources, visit Minds at Work on Understood.org. You can also email us at podcast@understood.org.
Nathan Friedman: Welcome to "Mindset at Work," the podcast for leaders who embrace neurodiversity in business. I'm your host, Nathan Friedman, co-president and chief marketing officer of Understood.org, the leading nonprofit focused on helping those who learn and think differently thrive. Each week we're here exploring how neurodiversity sparks innovation and how we as leaders across industries can create a more inclusive future for all.
Today, I'm joined by Justin Thomas-Copeland, the CEO of the 4A's. It's also known as the American Association of Advertising Agencies. The 4A's works with more than 600 agencies across the U.S. to promote and advance the interests of the advertising and marketing industry and its employees. Justin and my paths have crossed when the 4A's and Understood collaborated on research exploring the relationship between neurodiversity and creativity. And we also have a partnership to help drive impact at scale through the 4A's.
Justin is also an award-winning creative leader and someone who has thought deeply about inclusion and about the power of creativity to drive change. Justin, welcome, glad to connect with you today.
Justin Thomas-Copeland: Thanks, Nathan. Great to be here.
Nathan: Why don't we start with a little bit of background? Because maybe not everybody understands what the 4A's does or what your role at the 4A's is. You've been in the current position as CEO since May of this year. Talk about what that means, what that has been like, and then, you know, what are you most excited about?
Justin: So, yes, I've been in the role since May. I will say, first and foremost, it's an honor to be in the role. The 4A's is the American Association of Advertising Agencies. And essentially, our role is to be the voice of the advertising industry. It's really to drive impact for the industry. It's really to advocate for the industry as well as to look out for and champion talent across the industry. So, those are the three founding pillars, if you will.
And, you know, what that's been like is really a lot of listening, first of all. My first maybe month was listening, understanding what we were doing operationally, activities, activations. And also, you know, listening externally. I'm a big listener of the market. So, staying in tune with the market and understanding what the market is looking for from the 4A's in order to fulfill those three pillars. What things should we be advocating for? What things should we be driving that helps our members to drive impact with their clients? And what can we be doing to continue to champion and further the journey and course of talent in our industry?
And that's a hot one, especially as we have technology and AI that's really burst on the scene in such a big way. I think the talent pillar is a key pillar for us. So, I've been doing a lot of listening and then sort of getting up to speed and putting down some of our strategic pillars in terms of our way forward. So, just having, you know, a point of view on what that should be and what that should look like.
Nathan: And I think as I've gotten to know the 4A's more, both when I was on the agency side and here through Understood, it offers a lot of different ways to engage with its members, not only at a corporate agency level, but individuals who are working at the agencies.
Justin: Yes.
(03:06) What is the creativity crisis, and why does it matter now?
Nathan Friedman: And you know we've been talking about this for a while, not only you and me but the entire industry, but there's a lot of talk about the creativity crisis. Can you talk a bit about what that crisis is, maybe what the genesis of it was, and then how that's impacting the industry?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: Well, you know, it's an interesting one because creativity is for me the industry. That's why we have, that's why we need the industry, because it gives a certain voice and representation of brands and builds business in different ways, right? In creatively driven ways. The crisis, that's a big word for someone like me because crisis makes me think, "Oh my God, something's like falling apart or there's a real need to save something."
But I know, I know the sentiment. The sentiment of, where is creativity? Is that being valued? What about the product of our industry? Where's the talent? Is the talent sticking with the industry? Is the talent sort of thinning because technology, productivity, automation seems to be the order of the day? And you know, then you have platforms who, you know, have a, have a point of view on how things could be built and brands could be built. And so that also operationally has been a big voice in the industry in recent years. And again, is creativity sort of taking a back seat when, you know, you look at the origins of our industry, creativity was the guiding light. It was the force. And many who feel that that is, that is not the same. And is it a creatively driven industry? Is the output, the product and the specialism of creative thinking, is that valued by clients as much as it once was? So there are a lot of things that are prodding at creativity and sort of pulling it out of shape. And I think if you're a purist and you like the ideas and you like platform ideas and big thinking, then yes, maybe you're thinking this is not the same. The industry is not, you know, it's not, it's not valuing what we bring. So there's a lot of that happening in the creative crisis.
Nathan: I want to bridge to talk about that study that we did a bit. And we partnered on a study called "Unlocking Neurodiversity, a Creative Advantage," which is what we all believe. And that research looks, not only at the prevalence of neurodiverse talent in the creative industry, but it looks at it across different types of agencies in that area, right? Advertising, marketing, P.R. and their experiences that creatives have in those environments, right? And if we're thinking about how creatives best perform, it's looking at how do we enable them to do what they do so well. And, you know, before we get into the results, what did you hope to learn through this research? What did the 4A's want to get out of this?
Justin: Well, I think, you know, it's interesting because you talk about our industry and there are labels, if you will. You know, our agencies are filled with A-types, so you know, they're different and they think differently. I think what was great about this research was to really understand and have a perspective come out of learning on, how do people who are neurodivergent, how do they feel and how do we learn what environment we need to create for them to do their best work and to feel that they are, you know, they belong, they're included?
And I just personally feel that people will do their best work when they feel more relaxed and they feel that they are part of and they're inclusive in a community, a team, an organization. So I think this research was really, really important, you know, move away from sort of generic labels and really understand what are some of the challenges, what are some of the real insights, and what are the things that ultimately as a business, as a brand owner, as a, as an agency owner, thinking of our members, what can we do to create space so that we're really being inclusive with intention? And we're really understanding what, you know, neurodiversity really means. I think we're still very at the inception of understanding what that means. So I think we're definitely at the inception of creating real space for people who are neurodiverse.
What's interesting is that if you talk to people and I spoke to some of my circles and I know from my own family, neurodiversity is everywhere, but we haven't really got to the point where it's like a, it's not taboo. It's really welcomed. People and you know, the saying says, "Fear is stronger than love." And so sometimes when you don't understand how to step and make changes and make space for certain people, you could be intimidated by it and so you could record from actually being brave to do it, even though you actually believe that it's the right thing to do. So I think this research was also important in giving those insights so that companies, whether it's agencies, brand owners, platforms, they can really make space and understand and get insight into how you can build more inclusive teams and make space for everyone. And ultimately, that's good for business. It's good for the individual, it's good for the organization's culture. And I believe that, you know, all of these things are enriching, but you have to, you need some guardrails and some help. And I believe that this important research gives us a very firm platform for that.
(08:54) Surprising insights from 4As research on neurodivergent talent
Nathan Friedman: And I think what one of the things that also popped to me in the survey were around, you know, the stigma that people faced. They felt like they had to mask, they couldn't disclose, there was no safe space to do that because people felt they had to conform to whatever anybody else wanted. And I think the briefing that you mentioned is a great point.
Justin Thomas-Copeland: And that was 90%, just to interrupt. But that was 90%, I think. That's a huge number of people masking. I mean, this is, this is unfathomable to just think about that and just think, what does that mean in terms of people bringing their real selves and bringing their true ideas? Are they dumbing down what they want to contribute because they're just not being themselves? You're getting like a slice of themselves creatively speaking, and probably humanly speaking. So that's a big, that's another big number.
Nathan: Yes. And there's a lot of things brands can do and a lot of things agencies can do to help the environment feel more supportive. And it's, you know, those concepts of universal design, right? So you talk about the brief. What if the brief was sent before, not just handed out in the meeting for the first time so people could process it. And then, you know, having opportunities to come prepared, right? Or send meeting notice with the brief, you know, there's, there's little things that can be done on the upfront that help everybody.
Justin: Yes, absolutely. And that's really critical because those things will help everyone. You know, just giving space, no back-to-backs, putting in break times, you know, giving that advanced heads up on the brief, telling people the parts that we're really going to focus on so they can be really specific on their prep, et cetera, et cetera. Those are practical things that agencies and brands and everyone can do that. You know, you just have to start. But those aren't things that require you to change, you know, whole processes and reconfigure teams and, you know, reset how you work with your client or an agency. Those are things that are practical aids for everyone having space. And I think they're good business practices as well. So why wouldn't we try and bring some of these practices into how we work?
(15:15) How fast-paced change is disrupting, and driving, creativity
Nathan Friedman: You know, the pace of change and adapting to change and leading consistently through change, not only helps neurodivergent leaders and team members, but it helps everybody. How have you seen the kind of the pace of change shape how agencies work and impact creativity?
Justin Thomas-Copeland: That's such a broad and important question. First of all, the pace of change, I think I would argue is the fastest that we've seen, at least since I've been in the industry, and I'm sort of 32 years in. I think that pace that we've seen in the last, I would say, three to five years, I don't think we've seen that before. We, you know, we had the internet 1.0 and that had a little run. And then we had 2.0 with social and platforms and that had a little run, and then commerce and media proliferation, and everyone, you know, they all had a little corridor of time and then convergence.
But I think what we're seeing now is a number of things that are changing our industry. So there's pace of change on the client side. There's a new generation of clients who are now in more senior roles and those are more digital, data, and content-native clients. That's changed expectations. There's pace of change of consumers where you're in a battle to grab the attention now. And so to get those senses focused on your brand, you've arguably got to be more active. And I think that's given rise to more project-based, flexible expectations from clients. They haven't got 16 weeks to do a campaign. You know, the world is not working at that pace. It's much quicker. So I think that pace of change has been very real.
And then from an agency perspective, when you're taking on board some of those things, you have to think differently, right? And so it used to be that when you had sort of scale and you were big, you could adapt because you had, you know, you had reach everywhere. Technology has sort of really equalized and normalized a lot of that. So technology is also the new red thread that's binding clients and agencies and changing the conversation between them. And so you can do much faster work. Your output could be, you know, it could be increased exponentially. You can train and use within a day on most tools because they're so intuitive. So the barriers have come down. All of these things are just like really, really new and clients are adopting technology at a fast rate.
And they're looking for agencies to be there or be ahead of them. One of the changes is imperfection, or good is okay, right? And, you know, I know when I was coming into the industry, it had to be great. I mean, it just had to be great. And now consumers like, you could argue they like the sort of real-world, imperfect kind of aesthetic, which, you know, you could argue that that goes completely against the craft that probably you and I were drilled with. You know, understand the brand, learn the brand book, how it expresses itself. So all of that change and then being supercharged by AI who can, you know, you can prompt an ad. I mean, just think about that. You can, if you can think it and you can type it, you can see it, right? Like, you just have to say what you want.
So all of that change, the pace of it, I don't think we've ever seen that before. We've had all of these things coming together. And I think that that is tough on both sides for clients and for agencies. There's a lot, there's a lot happening out there. And I love it. I love change. But you've also got to be comfortable with change. And again, back to neurodiversity, we got to make sure there's opportunity in all of that change to create space and do things differently and give that liberation to people who want different environments. And I tell you something, I've spoken to a lot of people that look at some of the smaller independent agencies and think, "You know what? I reckon I'll probably get more of that space there." Now, whether they're right or wrong, we can argue and that'll probably be its own sort of debate.
But the fact is their perception is that there could be something more liberating in these new structures, because there must be a reason why some of these players have moved and want to do things differently. And maybe that's interesting. But I think, you know, just to finish up, I think that there's an opportunity for everyone to make space. I think what came out from the research was that there are things around masking, as we were talking about, you know, self-declaration of neurodiversity and all those things that we were talking about. There are practical things that everyone in the landscape can do to start to create space to varying degrees. And that's what I think is so great about this research being done, that it now gives you real pointers and it gives you very specific go-dos, you know, that you can implement. And I think that's priceless.
(24:50) Brands leading the way on inclusion: Who’s getting it right?
Nathan Friedman: It's not only priceless, it's it's I mean, building on that, it's the right thing to do.
Justin Thomas-Copeland: Right. It's Well said. Yeah. No, absolutely well said. But you know what it is, Nathan? Unless sometimes you get, you give the guardrails, people know it's the right thing to do instinctively, but like I said, fear is stronger than love. They just won't necessarily make the step. I think now with this research, you've got, you know, you've got research, you've, you've got the reason and the backing to start to make some of those steps. So go do, you know?
Nathan: And I'm willing to bet the agencies that fully, or the brands or the people teams that embrace this will come out on top.
Justin: A thousand percent. I agree. A thousand percent. And if we can make space for people to get opportunities where their creativity can shine through, oh, I think it could be, I mean, that would just make the world beautiful, much more beautiful than it is. So, I'm all for that.
Nathan: Justin, I think that's a perfect place to wrap up our discussion for today. I really appreciate your time. Thank you for sharing not only your perspective on Understood and 4A's collaboration with the research, but also the trends in the industry and some of your own personal experiences. So, thank you so much again for joining us.
Justin: Thank you very much, Nathan. It was a pleasure to be here.
Nathan: "Minds at Work" is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a nonprofit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences, like ADHD and dyslexia. If you want to help us continue this work, donate at understood.org/give.
The show is produced by Julie Subrin and Alison Hoachlander. Mixing is by Justin D. Wright, with production support from Andrew Rector. Briana Berry is our production director.
From Understood.org, our executive directors are Laura Key and Scott Cocchiere. And I'm your host, Nathan Friedman.