This week, Nathan welcomes Kay Sargent, Senior Principal and Director of Thought Leadership, Interiors at HOK, a global design, architecture, engineering, and planning firm. She is also the author of the groundbreaking book, “Designing NeuroInclusive Workplaces.” Kay challenges the “one-size-fits-all” office model, advocating for flexible, inclusive design rooted in choice and sensory diversity. She shares evidence-backed strategies that enhance productivity, engagement, and well-being, making a clear case for why the most effective workplaces are designed with neurodiversity and flexibility at their core.
This week, Nathan welcomes Kay Sargent, Senior Principal and Director of Thought Leadership, Interiors at HOK, a global design, architecture, engineering, and planning firm. She is also the author of the groundbreaking book, Designing NeuroInclusive Workplaces.
Kay challenges the “one-size-fits-all” office model, advocating for flexible, inclusive design rooted in choice and sensory diversity. She shares evidence-backed strategies that enhance productivity, engagement, and well-being, making a clear case for why the most effective workplaces are designed with neurodiversity and flexibility at their core.
Timestamps
(09:00) The six modalities of work and how to design for each
(15:45) “This is the first office that I’ve ever been able to come into where I don’t get headaches.”
(20:26) “ If you’re addressing the environment but not the operational side, you’re setting people up for failure.”
For a transcript and more resources, visit Minds at Work on Understood.org. You can also email us at podcast@understood.org.
Nate: Welcome to "Minds at Work," the podcast for leaders who embrace neurodiversity in business. I'm your host, Nathan Friedman, co-president and chief marketing officer of Understood.org, the leading nonprofit focused on helping those who learn and think differently thrive. Each week, we're here exploring how neurodiversity sparks innovation and how we as leaders across industries can create a more inclusive future for all.
Today, I'm happy to be joined in our studio by Kay Sargent. Kay is an interior designer. And is a senior principal and the director of thought, leadership, and interiors at HOK, a global design and architecture firm. She is the author of a new book, "Designing NeuroInclusive Workplaces," which is a big part of what we want to get into today. I've had the pleasure of talking with Kay about this work not only at South by Southwest, but at other events over the past few months, and it's great to be seeing you again in our offices. Welcome, Kay.
Kay: Thank you, thank you for inviting me to come chat with you today.
Nate: Of course.
Talk to us about how you got into design and your role at HOK.
Kay: So, Nathan, how far back do you want to go? I mean, I've been a practicing designer for 40 years. But I would say when I was 10 years old and my parents' friends would come over for parties, I was always sitting there drawing house plans for them, et cetera. In high school, I think I was the only girl in the mechanical drafting class, yes, like with a drafting board and a drafting table and ink, et cetera, all that. And I went to design school and have just kind of, you know, loved it ever since. And my role at HOK is the director of thought leadership for interiors. And that kind of morphed from the director of workplace.
Nate: Is that how you got into the neuroinclusive part of the work you do, or is there another story that moves you down that path?
Kay: Oh no, that was a very specific incident. It's amazing how one question can change your entire trajectory.
Nate: Tell me.
Kay: Nine years ago, we were sitting in a meeting with a client, and as we were leaving that meeting, he just kind of casually said, "How do you design space for someone that has ADHD?" And being the mother of five and having designed every kind of imaginable space on the planet that you can think of, I had an OK answer, but I didn't have a great answer, and I wanted to know more. And so, we started to dive into that so I could get back to him. And what we found is this just massive gap of information about the built environment.
There was a lot about onboarding and organizational structure and what we should be do to accommodate the person, but really not about the environments. And so, we started to do some research and I think we're probably 12, 13, I can't even count how many studies and reports we've done. We've done six research initiatives, multiple case studies. We have a lot of insights now on that, and it just keeps building and growing over time, and we still got a lot more to learn.
Nate: That's amazing. And there must be a lot of inspiration coming from external points of view right now, but from an internal point of view, how does neurodiversity impact your work and your life in an everyday way?
Kay: I...Well, I would say this, I think it's impacting all of us. I think every single person is neurodiverse. We're just not necessarily all neurodivergent. And I don't know a single person that isn't impacted by sound, light, temperature, all of those things.
Nate: Different dimensions of spectrums.
Kay: Exactly. And I think we have just gotten so good at masking and pretending that it doesn't affect us that we almost have zero sensory intelligence, but it really is impacting all of us. And as our clients are coming to us and saying, how do we get our people more engaged? How do we help them be healthier? How do we have them be more productive and efficient, and effective, and just enjoy what they're doing? Sensory stimulation is a huge part of that that we've ignored for a long time.
Nate: And there's been a lot of movement around inclusion.
Kay: Yes.
Nate: And then that might be one element of it. But I think one of the things I noticed when I was reading your book was around inclusiveness for everyone, not just one individual person.
Kay: Yeah. I think, quite frankly, over the last several years, as we've kind of tried to have a drive to efficiency, we have kind of tried to design spaces for the average person doing the average thing. And I defy anybody to tell me, who is that today? Who is the average and what is that average thing that they're doing? And I think we are far more complex, and we need to create solutions that give people options and some kind of control so that they can find the right fit for themselves.
Nate: But for those listening, they may not quite understand what you mean by different options, different choices when you're designing a space. So, like well there's walls, there's floors, there is furniture. Just put it in the right place. Can you go into a little bit more about what that is and how it's different by a different...
Kay: Yeah, I mean, I think you can walk into a lot of offices and what you're going to see is rows and rows of Identical desk, and you are assigned a spot. You have absolutely no control, no ability to adjust it, and you just kind of have to deal with that. That's that's where you are. And I think that is the equivalent of if the fashion industry decided to come out and say, "OK, this year everybody is going to get a gray unitard size 10, man, woman, child, you know, it doesn't matter. You're all getting the exact same thing. And we would never stand for that.
Nate: No, no, no.
Kay: But somehow in offices, we just kind of say, "OK, well, that's what it, we don't have a choice. And that's it."
Nate: And you talked a little bit about what it isn't, right? Like these rows and rows of cubicles we've seen of a space, or at least most of us have, in some way, shape, or form. What are some things that really is the opposite of that? And what are you seeing are things that are really neuroinclusive that people are doing today?
Kay: Well, let me give you one more thing that it isn't.
Nate: Sure.
Kay: Nowhere in nature is there a rectangular white box with strip lighting, yet we repeatedly put people in those spaces and expect them to feel comfortable and it just isn't, and so I think we need to embrace environments that are more welcoming, that are elements of hospitality, elements of biophilia. I think that we're kind of living in a time where high tech equals high touch. The more high tech we go, the more we as humans seek that balance of who we are, organic beings, and we want spaces that we feel more comfortable in.
Nate: You mentioned biophilia. Tell me a bit about what that is. I'm not sure if everybody's familiar.
Kay: So, biophilia is the introduction of natural elements into the space. And now most people will say, "OK, well, that's a plant. Got it." But a plant in the corner is not the solution. We're talking about...
Nate: Which nobody ever waters. There's a lot more to it.
Kay: It's not even just a green wall, OK, because nowhere in nature is there a perfectly vertical green wall.
Nate: That's pretty, but that's not.
Kay: Right, so it's really about introducing natural materials, natural colors, access to daylight, organic shapes, and forms. Again, nowhere in nature is there a rectangular white box with strip lighting in the ceiling. And so, it could be even blurring the inside and the outside, it can be about outside spaces. It's about fractals, it's about mystery and delight, things that you encounter in nature. It's not about boring static spaces.
And I think one of the challenges right now is that people are saying, "Oh, OK, we have to design for neuro-inclusivity. That just means let's dumb down all the spaces so there isn't anything that's gonna overwhelm somebody." Well, that's totally ignoring the fact that a lot of people are hyposensitive. They actually need additional stimulation. And it's assuming that everyone that's hypersensitive wants a boring space. I don't think anybody wants a boring space.
They want it to be legible, ordered, structured. Somewhat controlled, but having moments of delight or areas that have pops of interest, that's fundamental to just who we are as people, to get us excited. It helps with wayfinding, it helps with navigating, and being exposed to that for a short period can bring, you know, excitement to anybody.
Nate: And something you were talking about the other week at a different event was this concept of, you know, there's a lot of loneliness going on in the world today. And how that relates to the spaces, sometimes people need that flexibility. And some people wanna come in, they wanna stay home. How is that incorporated into the workspace you're designing?
Kay: Yeah, I think that we need to understand that people are doing a variety of things. And this is kind of where all of our research on workplace collides with our research on neurodiversity. You're not just coming in and doing one thing.
There's actually six modalities of work, everything from socializing to refreshing to concentrating to creating and kind of process work. And we need to be able to create different zones for each one of those activities. And then we need to be able to have some kind of environmental adjustments.
Not all the spaces should be exactly the same. We should have different sound levels, different environmental settings, so that people can really kind of find a space that feels more comfortable for them. And this is happening naturally in a building. You know, people will say, "OK, well, but it's too expensive to do that." After being a designer for 40 years, I can tell you I cannot design a space that has the perfect temperature for everybody. But the sun moves, and so should we.
At any building at any given time, there are different hot spots and cooler spots. There are brighter areas and darker areas. There are louder spaces and quieter spaces. And we need to tap into those and leverage those and empower people to be able to find the spaces that really kind of fit their sensory needs so that they can be useful.
Nate: The adage that, you know, offices were designed for men with suits to be cool enough so men could wear multiple layers.
Kay: Let me just make it even worse for you, Nathan. Most of the research on anything related to environmental situations were done on adolescent and or college-age boys, and I don't think anything should be based on adolescent boys.
Nate: No, but I mean the same thing with ADHD research in women, 99.5% of research is done on men.
Kay: Yes.
Nate: And I think that goes into a whole bunch of different global inequities that are out there. But if we can design for all, hopefully we can help every single person, because this doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, some of these different stimulus that you experience at work are real.
Talk to me a little bit about how you designed the, no pun intended, designed the book and created that book. Because I think there's a lot of interesting information in there. What was the underpinning for that inception of the idea? And then what were some of the biggest insights you had as you were developing it?
Kay: Why did we write the book that we never wanted to write? Is that what you're asking?
Nate: Yeah.
Kay: Because we were speaking at South by Southwest a year ago and somebody in the audience was a publisher and she said, "I've never heard anybody talk about it this way. I think you need to write the book" and unfortunately for me, one of my colleagues was there and said, "Yes, of course we will," right?
Nate: So, Kay wrote the book.
Kay: Right, we kind of did. "Yeah, sure, she'll do it." So, but we at that point had eight years of research. We had tons of information. We were already doing this for our clients, we were already piling in it. And we went back and talked to the firm and basically we just decided, and we decided early on when we started putting all of this out there, for us this was not considered a competitive advantage. It was a moral imperative.
We as designers believe very, very strongly that the places we are creating have a positive impact on people. But we also then have to acknowledge that if we're not doing it well, it can have a negative impact. And for us, that's a non-starter. So, we wanted to put it out there so that everybody could kind of benefit. And quite frankly, I'd rather give it to my competitors so that they're doing it right than having people that are running around doing it not effectively. And then bringing everything down.
Nate: It's a very similar process to what we have understood, working with, through, and alongside others. As a nonprofit, we want everybody to thrive. And if we can help the community thrive, why not?
Kay: Right.
Nate: Have you seen any resistance or maybe more tailwinds in this now that there's a stronger return to the office mandate since the past couple years have passed?
Kay: I would say that I think there's a lack of awareness. I think a lot of people don't understand this and so we are on a massive educational campaign. We speak all the time, clients, non-clients, anyone that will listen to us basically and I think it's important for people to start normalizing this a little bit more and to accept this and to just really understand it because that's the first step and then the next step is really kind of saying, "All right, well where are we?" You know, if I asked anybody today, "Are your spaces designed to be neuroinclusive?" almost no one can answer that question because they don't know what that actually means to be designed.
Nate: Yeah, and it's also people sometimes equate pretty design or visually appealing design with inclusive design, and those are different things, but they can overlap.
Kay: Yes. I mean, that's the challenge here. And I think it's a point where when you think about there are certain people that are hypersensitive, there are people that hyposensitive, but kind of all or somewhere on that spectrum you can be hyper to one, hypo to another. It seems like an unbelievable challenge to create a space that can meet everybody. But I think what we're really starting to understand and put in the book is there absolutely is a way to do this. And we literally talk through step by step. How we have been helping our clients through that to create spaces that are far more inclusive where people do have options and choice.
And I think the other thing that people think is, "Well, this is gonna be really expensive or it's gonna take more time." Our clients that we've done this for will tell you it is not more expensive and it actually has helped expedite the process. Because when you're dealing with scientist engineers. They want to know the facts. And when we are leaning on evidence-based solutions and can say, "This is why we're doing it this way and here's the research that shows the benefit," then it's like, "OK, I get that. I understand that." Versus, "Hey, I just think this is a cool trend." It's not just my opinion, right? There is a science behind what we do, and we need to lean into that.
Nate: Have there been any favorite projects you've worked on over the past few years that you're like, this is really it, this is how it should work, and I'm so proud we were able to do this?
Kay: Nathan, I've worked on unbelievable projects in my 40 years. I've done things for the government, I've done things for every kind of organization, for companies that, you know, Fortune 500, Fortune 10 companies. I think one of the most satisfying moments of my career was when we were recently at a space that we had designed, that is an award-winning space, by the way.
Nate: Congratulations.
Kay: Thank you, we're very excited about that. And we were in the space giving tours after we had done. The whole thing was designed to be neuroinclusive. We really kind of leaned into all the principles that we talked about.
And during one of the tours, as we were sitting off to the side, a gentleman came over and said, "Are you all the designers of the space?" And we said, "Yes." And he said, "Thank you. This is the first office that I've ever been able to come into where I don't get headaches, or get physically nauseous from being in the space, because of whether it's sound or the temperature or whatever, because I can function in this space. And I can now connect with my colleagues in a way that I have never been able to do before. And that's changed everything for me."
Nate: That's amazing.
Kay: That's why we do what we do. So, I think of all the accolades of all the awards I've won, that statement from him probably was the most impactful of my career.
Nate: Yeah, I mean, you kind of see some of those shock or opportunity or lightness when people come into a space. And that says a lot more than a trophy on the wall. But I mean it's really meaningful. When you're designing spaces, tell us about some of the key things you look at and are aiming to design for. And what are some of elements that really make it neuroinclusive?
Kay: Right, so we want to create spaces that have a little bit of variety, but not too much because then we get variety anxiety, right? We want people to be able to have adjustable work surfaces and heights. We want to be people to sit in a quiet space if they choose to do that, but other people really thrive on being in a buzzy environment. And we found that not everybody wants to be in an enclosed room. You know, there are some people that are really bothered by that. So, they just wanna be off to the side where they can visibly signal other people that they're doing something by themselves, but they still thrive on being in that energy.
We think about the acoustics, different acoustic zones and levels. We think the lighting and having more natural lighting, not just direct lighting on top, adjustable lighting and some spaces where you can turn the lighting off all altogether. We think all the materialities, color, texture. All of those things have an impact. And we think about visual clutter and visual control. And even just the elements of prospect and refuge, where you feel like you can clearly kind of understand what's around you and where you are, it's a huge issue in airports and a lot of public spaces.
Nate: Yes.
Kay: And I think one of the things, we're not just talking about workplace. We're doing this now in health care, hospitality, sports arenas. We're going this in airports and higher education spaces.
Nate: HOK just doesn't do office buildings, by the way. It does a lot of other types of spaces, and we all spend, yes, a lot of time in the office, but those other spaces are just as, are ripe with opportunities to create spaces that are inclusive.
Kay: I mean, has anybody gone to an airport and said, "Wow, this was the most relaxing situation or environment I've ever been in"? No.
Nate: Well, I was actually just in Newark Airport the other day, and I was in Terminal A and Terminal C, and it was very interesting. And some of these, what you see, can be improved on greatly, right?
Kay: Absolutely.
Nate: They had Dulles Airport, Dallas Airport, and Washington all boarding at the same gates next to each other. So, you can imagine Dullas, Dallas, and Washington, people going, "What, where, who?" It's like the movie Airplane.
Kay: Well, we actually are doing all of those airports right now and we just did LaGuardia. And I think our teams have really embraced this notion of how do we make spaces intuitive? How do we help people navigate those spaces? I mean, putting up tons and tons of signage is not necessarily the answer because not everybody reads the same language, not everybody can see the signage, not everybody understands them, some people get totally over.
Nate: Cognitive load is a huge challenge in airports.
Kay: Exactly. So, we have to create spaces that are far more legible, intuitively, so that people can navigate them more successfully. So, there's a whole variety of things that we do to create more inclusive spaces.
Nate: One of the things that I was really impressed about when we first started talking months ago was the concept that it's not just one thing, that there's many different things. So we often hear, "Oh, universal design will create a visual system or lower cognitive load by creating different types of signs." You're looking at not only sound, but visual cues. You're looking at textures and all of that, which is really important because otherwise you're fixing, it's a band-aid of sorts and you're not really getting to the root opportunity.
Kay: Yeah, and we would also say it's a three-legged stool. If you are addressing inclusion in your organization, you're changing onboarding and your training and your interview process, but you're not addressing the built environment, you're taking a freshwater fish and you're putting them in salt water.
Nate: Yeah.
Kay: If you're addressing the environment but not the operational side, you're setting people up for failure as well. And even if you're doing those things, you might get it 80%. But people still need that third leg, which is the ability to have some kind of adjustments so that they can adjust it to them. And it can change throughout the day, throughout your week, and it affects everybody. I mean, I could come in that morning and be in a really bad mood and really have to focus on something in the afternoon. I've just found out my team won. I'm all excited and I'm out in a social space, right?
So, I think this notion that one thing is going to fit you all day. We have got to start designing spaces like people or potted plants, and everything is supposed to adjust around us.
Nate: This three-legged stool concept is actually something I want to go back to because we often overlook two of those legs I feel like. Oftentimes people go to one. "Oh, we designed a beautiful office space," or you know you designed a bit of a loft space that's inclusive, but the environment is not such that an individual who's neurodivergent can thrive.
Kay: Right.
Nate: Or you have an onboarding inclusion and acquisition process of a team member, and that just goes awry because that also is the problem. You have to look at this holistically, where the physical space, the soft product of sorts, and the environment all work together to create a little something special that's magic that really can help every individual thrive.
Kay: And I think we have to unlearn something that we learned when we were kids.
Nate: Which is what?
Kay: The golden rule, do unto others as you would want them to do upon to you. But that assumes that everybody wants what you want. And I think part of the biggest problem here is we have this double empathy problem where people don't understand that not everybody wants the same thing. We don't all think the same, we don't process the same. Every single one of us right now is dealing with someone who is driving us nuts because they do things differently than we do. They don't respond like we do, they don't process things as quickly, they might be a procrastinator, they don't turn on their camera, they don't look you in the eye, they don't do it the way you would.
We need to start understanding that that's OK and that we need to meet people where they are and we need to understand that there might be really good reason why somebody is acting differently, and to try to do unto others as they want to be done upon, which is the platinum rule.
Nate: A lot of our listeners may not have the ability to do a gut rehab, move into a brand new space, start from scratch, although we would all love if every space was neuroinclusive. Can you talk about a couple of different low-cost, easy to implement changes that people can start with so they can at least get a leg up on this?
Kay: Yeah. Sure. We've done six research initiatives, and from all of that and all of our years of experience and best practices, we actually have a list that can also be used as kind of an audit check sheet.
Nate: And you say, we, you mean, HOK?
Kay: HOK has developed this list, yes. And we we put it in the book because we want to share that but we put a QR code, because the second you put something in writing you've time stamped it and then I you could call me next week and be like "Hey, I'm, not really sure about item number two. And if I wanted to change it, I couldn't because it's in print. But with a QR code, it's a living list that anybody can update. But, from these research initiatives, and we share what we think are really good strategies, like the top 40, the same 13 things repeatedly come to the top of the list. And a lot of them are, you know, kind of the usual suspects. Being able to sit in low-traffic areas, maybe not being on a main corridor, having some protection for your back, access to natural daylight.
Nate: Headphones, I'm sure.
Kay: Right, ergonomic settings. Options and choice is important. For some people, a dedicated space is important. If you're OCD or you're overwhelmed with too many options and choices or just really need some control, being able to do that is important, but that shouldn't mean that every single person has to. And I think visual clutter is another one that people grossly underestimate, especially for women. Women tend... Interesting. In our research... We found they have a higher percentage of women want some visual interest.
Nate: Tell me more about visual interest.
Kay: It might be colors, it might be pretty things, it might pillows on the bed, whatever that is, something that is visually interesting, but it has to be ordered and structured. If it's chaotic or out of control, then it just becomes like this noise that can make it very difficult for them to focus or concentrate on anything else, the task at hand, right? And I will tell you when we, there's a sensory test that you can take to see what your triggers are, that was one that came to my attention.
And you can imagine, having five kids in my house, there can be times where there's a lot of visual clutter.
Nate: And noise.
Kay: Right, and so, we have a lot of crazy things in our house, but it has to be ordered. When it gets out of order, I just, it's like, it just is incredibly unsettling. And that's very, very common for women. And so in open environments, it is important. I mean, Nathan, in existing spaces, it can be something like the color of a wall or not having access to just get up and take a phone call in a quiet space or get away from that loud talker or that loud chewer.
Nate: I remember at a previous organization, there was somebody who had one of those responsive keyboards that the clack, clack, clack. And you could hear that person on the entire floor, regardless of where you sat, and it was a big building.
Kay: Well, that's part of the problem now, quite frankly. And people keep saying that offices are too loud. I actually think that in many cases, offices are too quiet. We've taken out all the background noise. It used to be you would have people talking on a phone, you'd have clacking keyboards, you'd had the mechanical system. But now we've quieted all those things down. And so, when you can hear somebody across the room clacking on a keyboard tray or having a conversation and you hear that as clear as day, that is far more distracting than kind of that general background hum. Like if you go to a restaurant and there's one other couple, that is not gonna be a good meal. You're gonna hear everything those people are saying.
Nate: There's a couple of reasons why that may not be a good meal, but go ahead.
Kay: Yes, if you're, you know, but look at all the people that can work on a Starbucks. And it's not quiet, and you know, but there's a hum and buzz.
Nate: There's a way in which you can do it.
Kay: Right.
Nate: And it's for different types of work, too.
Kay: Or if it's too loud and you're shouting. So, not all sound is noise, and sometimes quiet spaces can be really eerie.
Kay: We were actually at a different event a couple of weeks ago. We were talking about the future of design.
Kay: Yes.
Nate: And it was fascinating. Is there any trends you're seeing coming out that may help the neurodivergent thinker or anybody in general in this area?
Kay: Yeah, I think there are there are a ton of trends that I think, you know, the trying to make things more hospitable, inserting a little bit more personality into some of these spaces, making them a little more high touch, I think the increased exposure to natural daylight, biophilia being introduced to spaces. All of those things can be great, but they have to be evidence-based. If we're doing something cool just because, OK, and I'll give you an example.
A lot of people will create phone rooms because instinctively they know that there are gonna be people that need to have a private conversation or they need quiet so that we wanna give them a space to go into. But if a designer, without really thinking about it, decides, "Oh, I wanna make that cool and I wanna get a bright, crazy color with a wild pattern on it," you literally just short-circuited the person that you might have designed that space for.
Kay: Or it feels like a small bathroom with all this crazy wallpaper. It's way overwhelming.
Kay: Right. And so, what is important is intentional design. We need to understand that every single decision we are making has an impact on individuals. And I think, you know, part of the reason we share all this is my competition today isn't another design firm. It's someone who doesn't understand the power of design and or artificial intelligence that is randomly making decisions that they think look cool, but really they don't have a deep understanding about how this is impacting us as individuals and people.
Kay: How would you respond to an executive or another leader who says, you know, there's only so far we can go with inclusive design? We are this type of organization, we need this type of space. Have you ever come across that?
Kay: Absolutely. We've had the head of a 200-person or 2,000-person engineering school tell us, "Nope, we don't need to talk about that. We don't have anybody that's neurodivergent here." And again, I think a lot of it is a lack of understanding.
Nate: Right.
Kay: We have had people say, "Oh, we're worried in this political climate about making accommodations for people." And I said…
Nate: That sounds ridiculous, I mean. I mean, I understand that, but accommodations are legal.
Kay: My response was equally ridiculous. And I said, "God, I'm so sorry. We're not going to have glasses or hearing aids or, you know, any of those things in the office anymore." And they're like, "What do you mean?" It's like, well, those are all accommodations for physical challenges that somebody is having. We're already making accommodations. All ergonomic furniture is an accommodation. We need to understand that we are not all the same. And this is not only just good for individuals. This is good for the business.
Nate: Yeah.
Kay: And it impacts every single one of us. And so, we really are talking about sensory processing, cognitive well-being, to optimize human performance so that all can thrive. When we do these things, it is not just the neurodivergent individual that benefits, it's every single person, because we are all being impacted by these things just to different degrees.
Nate: Yes.
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Kay.
Kay: We could talk for hours, Nathan. So, thank you for inviting me to come.
Kay: Thanks for tuning in to "Minds at Work." I hope today's conversation inspired you to think differently about what's possible and how we approach our work as business leaders. If you want to know more about our guest today or the work we're doing here at Understood.org, please check out the show notes. For those looking for resources to better advocate for themselves and others, please visit U.org/work.
"Minds at Work" is brought to you by Understood.org. Understood.org is a non-profit organization dedicated to empowering people with learning and thinking differences like ADHD and dyslexia. To help us continue and expand our work, please donate at Understood.org/give.
The show is produced by Julie Subrin and Alison Hoachlander. Mixing is by Justin D. Wright. Samisah Adams is our supervising producer. Briana Berry is our production director and Neil Drumming is the editorial director. Our executive directors are Laura Key, Scott Cocchiere, and Seth Melnick, and I'm your host, Nathan Friedman. Please join us next time. We'll continue exploring how difference can spark connection and shape a more inclusive, creative future of business.